Tuesday, January 2, 2018

NV prosecutors seek new trial against Bundys, say evidence violations were 'inadvertent'=BULLSHIT

NV prosecutors seek new trial against Bundys, say evidence violations were 'inadvertent'


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Prosecutors on Friday urged a federal judge to allow them to retry Nevada cattleman Cliven Bundy, his two sons and a fourth man, arguing that any failure to provide evidence to the defense in the last trial was simply "inadvertent'' or because they reasonably believed the law didn't require them to share the material.
"The Brady violations found by the court are regrettable and benefit no one,'' Nevada's Acting U.S. Attorney Steven Myhre wrote in a 55-page legal brief. "But because the government neither flagrantly violated nor recklessly disregarded its obligations, the appropriate remedy for such violations is a new trial.''
The prosecutors claim they couldn't simply turn over all the material, citing "harassment and threats'' made to witnesses, victims and officers in the case who would be in jeopardy if personal information got out, especially on social media.
They also cited the massive volume of documents, videos and emails from two federal agencies and Las Vegas and Nevada law enforcement agencies that they needed to cull, and the constraints of the U.S. attorney's "low-tech'' database.
The 1.5 terabytes of information shared with defense was "by far the largest review and disclosure operation'' in the history of the Nevada's U.S. Attorney's Office, Myhre wrote.
Prosecutors argued that the six Brady violations found by the judge encompass "one small portion of the discovery'' and that the defendants can proceed with a new trial and "all the information they're entitled to."
The legal brief represents the prosecution team's first significant comments since U.S. District Judge Gloria M. Navarro declared a mistrial last week in the case brought by the government against Bundy, sons Ammon and Ryan Bundy and Ryan Payne in the April 2014 armed standoff with federal officers.
Prosecutors are undertaking a substantial review of all their evidence and will share any further reports it may discover, they noted. The Brady law, named for the landmark 1963 U.S. Supreme Court case Brady v. Maryland, requires prosecutors to turn over all evidence that may prove favorable to defendants.
"The government takes its discovery obligations seriously,'' Myhre wrote. "The government seeks justice on the merits of a case, not through dodging discovery rules and technicalities, or by obscuring violations if and when they may occur.''
Defense lawyers said the harm caused by the violations and the prosecution's continued failure to accept responsibility demand a dismissal of all the charges against the four men. They were indicted last year on conspiracy and other allegations, accused of rallying militia members and armed supporters to stop federal agents from impounding Bundy cattle. Officers were acting on a court order filed after Cliven Bundy failed to pay grazing fees and fines for two decades.
"The government's irresponsible and, at times, false proffers to this court as well as its dismissiveness toward the defense inspires no confidence in the prospect of fairness," Brenda Weksler, an assistant federal public defender representing Payne, wrote on behalf of all the defendants. "Anything short of a dismissal is tantamount of condoning the government's behavior in this case. ... Dismissal is the only way to ensure such conduct will not happen again.''
The judge found the prosecutors' violations were "willful,'' and led to due process violations. She said they waited too long to provide FBI and other agency reports and maps on surveillance, including a camera and snipers, outside the Bundy ranch, threat assessments that indicated the Bundys weren't violent and nearly 500 pages of internal affairs documents involving U.S. Bureau of Land Management special agent Dan Love, who led the cattle roundup. He has since been fired from the agency for unrelated misconduct.
Both sides are expected to return before Navarro on Jan. 8 for a hearing to determine whether the government will be allowed to retry the case.

Mistrial declared in Cliven Bundy standoff case
Myhre wrote that the Nevada U.S. Attorney's Office began working in October 2014 to collect investigative documents from the Bureau of Land Management and FBI, as well as historical documents related to Cliven Bundy's long-running grazing dispute. The combined database contained more than 30,000 documents or 250,000 pages.
In addition to that database, there were 45 search warrants that generated more than 500,000 pages of affidavits and evidence lists, more than 82,000 emails and 75 videos, including bodycam and dashcam videos from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department and Nevada Highway Patrol.
The prosecution team looked through all the information with witness protection in mind, their legal motion said.
"The prosecution team went 'low tech,' spending hundreds of hours conducting word searches for documents, reviewing documents one at a time for relevant information and tagging documents individually for relevancy and future production," Myhre wrote.
Prosecutors also believed the court's restrictions barring self-defense arguments during earlier standoff trials this year meant they didn't have to share information about certain aspects of the law enforcement response.

Rebuke of U.S. attorneys in Cliven Bundy case: 'Every prosecutor's nightmare'
The prosecutors said, for instance, they didn't become aware until Nov. 10 of a Tactical Operations Center log that referred to a surveillance camera outside the Bundy home - it was found on a thumb drive left in a federal vehicle -- and still don't consider it relevant to the Bundys' defense. It contained four notations from observations on April 5 and April 6, 2014, largely noting the type of vehicles arriving and that a Bundy was seen outside on the phone.
"The government argued in good faith that the information was not material, and this court concluded that it was. That may make the government wrong, but being wrong does not equate to bad faith, nor does it show a flagrant disregard of the government's discovery obligations," Myhre wrote.
As for documents referencing snipers or maps of officers' positions, some of the information was contained in earlier reports that had been shared on time, showing the prosecution's actions weren't done for "tactical advantage," Myhre wrote.


A footnote from the prosecutors' legal brief, regarding what they say they shared in the first two trials about the existence of federal snipers. The judge, in her ruling, was concerned that the government had denied the snipers' presence near the Bundy Ranch in the first two trials, and at the start of the third trial.
The prosecution also didn't think the threat assessments would be helpful to the defense, the memo said. Some were done as early as 2012 and considered "stale" and irrelevant, he wrote.
The threat assessments have proven a source of significant arguments between the prosecution and defense. A 2012 FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit assessment concluded there was a "low to moderate risk of violence" by Cliven Bundy at that time and that the Bureau of Land Management was "trying to provoke a conflict." A separate FBI operations order described Cliven Bundy "as not being violent based on past history, but if backed into a corner could be" and that Ryan Bundy "could be violent." A BLM law enforcement assessment said the Bundys "will probably get in your face'' but not engage in a shootout. A Gold Butte Risk report referenced media talking points for the BLM to stay ahead of negative publicity that apparently were not used.

Unsealed motions in NV Bundy case detail prosecution's violations
The prosecution also sought to explain its dismissive response to Ryan Bundy's pretrial motion, which sought any information on "mysterious devices" outside the Bundy ranch, as a "fantastical fishing expedition."
The words referred to Ryan Bundy's request for the make and model of every piece of equipment and his "speculat[ion]" that the camera was being used to "paint" the Bundy home "for artillery or [aerial] target acquisition," Myhre wrote. He added that his team never suggested "the Court's request'' for information about the camera was a "fantastical fishing expedition.''


Excerpt of government's legal brief, explaining why prosecutors characterized the defense's request for an Office of Inspector General report as an "urban legend.'' They said the report was not identified as such, but instead as an internal report by the Bureau of Land Management. That's why they couldn't locate it until this month, they said.
In the weeks leading up to the April 12, 2014, standoff, more than 100 law enforcement officers were involved in providing security, prosecutors said. They acknowledged they "inadvertently" didn't share federal reports on Bureau of Land Management officers, dressed in tactical gear and armed with AR-15 rifles, on observation posts near the Bundy ranch before trial, but noted that some of the information was contained in another Bureau of Land Management operation report shared in May. It described as many as five officers on listening/observation posts around the Bundy ranch.
They said it was "simply an oversight'' they didn't share a 2015 report on a BLM agent who was on watch in tactical gear east of the Bundy ranch in early April 2014 with a rifle and using a "seismic sensor,'' to alert him and another of cars traveling on Old Gold Butte Road, or the report about another land agent on "roving assignment'' near the impound center during that time.
Myhre wrote that "it was not apparent'' that these reports were helpful to the defense in challenging their federal conspiracy, assault or other charges, which resulted from actions that occurred several miles from the Bundy ranch.
The defense, however, said the prosecution's behavior "was instrinsically wrong and has defeated the ends of justice."
Defense lawyers pointed out that the judge already found that the FBI knew of the evidence that was withheld and that there were federal prosecutors present during interviews of officers whose reports were not disclosed.
"The government's untimely disclosures came almost four years after the government began its investigation, and almost two years after the government secured its indictment. Based on the indictment, the defendants lost almost two years of their lives in custody,'' Weksler wrote.
The prosecution's failure to recognize what material needed to be shared with the defense, she wrote, "affects cases beyond the one in question and is emblematic of a much larger problem.''
The government shouldn't be allowed a "do-over'' with a different jury, now that it's more familiar with the Bundys' and Payne's defense theories and how the defense worked to eliminate potential jurors, she wrote. Based on questions some jurors posed to witnesses during the trial that was halted, Weksler wrote that it appeared the government's case was "faltering.''
"The government cannot be fairly given another bite at the apple as a result of its own flagrant misconduct,'' Weksler wrote.
-- Maxine Bernstein
mbernstein@oregonian.com
503-221-8212
@maxoregonian
DOCUMENTS FILED FRIDAY:
PROSECUTION -
--Prosecution's opposition to dismissal
Prosecution's exhibits filed with motion opposing dismissal:
--Exhibit on Tactical Operations Center log
 --Exhibit on maps
--Another exhibit on maps
 --Exhibit on back-and-forth defense/prosecution emails regarding threat assessments
--Exhibit on email to Cliven Bundy's defense lawyer Bret Whipple
 --Exhibit including partial transcript from Nov. 21 court hearing on snipers/threat assessments
--Exhibit on 'Mission 18- Bundy residence,' Gold Butte communications information
--Exhibit on BLM letter explaining why no Office of Inspector General case number for what became BLM investigation into 2009 complaint about agency not taking action to protect desert tortoise
--Notice of the Nevada U.S. attorney's chief appellate lawyer, assistant U.S. attorney Elizabeth White, being added to the prosecution team
 DEFENSE
--Ryan Payne's defense motion for dismissal
--Ryan Bundy's motion for dismissal of indictment


Map provided late to defense in Nevada trial that shows drop posts (DP) where federal law enforcement officers were placed for 2014 cattle impoundment.

Unsealed motions in NV Bundy case detail prosecution's violations

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In a July 5 email, Ryan Payne's lawyers asked prosecutors for copies of all threat assessments prepared before the April 2014 standoff between Cliven Bundy's supporters and federal officers trying to impound Bundy's cattle for years of failing to pay grazing fees and fines.
Prosecutors characterized the defendants' continued push for the assessments as another in their "long list of frivolous and vexatious pleadings.''
Prosecutors didn't turn over the assessments to Payne, Bundy and Bundy's two sons, Ammon and Ryan Bundy, until the four were in the midst of a trial last month and a government witness under cross-examination acknowledged familiarity with one of the reports.
The threat assessments by the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit, the Southern Nevada Counterterrorism Task Force, FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force and Gold Butte Cattle Impound Risk Assessment found the Bundys weren't likely to use violence.
They were just one example of the prosecution team's callous disregard of its constitutional obligations to share with the defense any potentially favorable evidence, according to Payne's lawyers, assistant federal public defenders Brenda Weksler and Ryan Norwood.
The date of the defense attorneys' initial request for the crucial threat reports and their late disclosure is among the information revealed in newly unsealed motions by Payne's lawyers to dismiss the case.
The motions contain redactions throughout as the trial judge had requested.
The paperwork discloses that prosecutors had sought to continue the trial, once U.S. District Judge Gloria M. Navarro on Dec. 11 signaled she was concerned about more than a handful of potential evidence violations by the government attorneys.
Prosecutors argued that much of the material turned over late to the defense was "irrelevant'' and that the defense theories that the Bundys recruited militia to the Bunkerville area in 2014 because they feared federal snipers or federal surveillance weren't valid legal arguments.
Instead, Navarro on Dec. 20 declared a mistrial, finding at least six types of Brady discovery violations and that prosecutors "willfully'' withheld the evidence, resulting in due process violations. She set a hearing for Jan. 8 to determine if the case should be dismissed with prejudice, meaning it can't be retried. The government and defendants have until Friday to file their written arguments.

Mistrial declared in Cliven Bundy standoff case
The unsealed motions filed by Payne's lawyers also signal what his lawyers are likely to argue in Friday's legal brief: that prosecutors repeatedly failed to abide by deadlines set to share favorable evidence with the defense, were dismissive of specific requests for evidence, engaged in a "pattern to ridicule and disparage the defense'' requests and then made "brazen proffers'' to the court that specific information sought didn't exist, only to find out later they were mistaken.
Further, the government has continually failed to take responsibility for its misconduct, Weksler argued in a December motion.
"Here the government cannot seem to recognize what constitutes Brady material, maintains it has done nothing wrong, blames the defense for improper and 'late demands,' and for 'filing serial motions to dismiss based on proclaimed discovery violations,' '' Payne's lawyers wrote. "This Court should be 'troubled' by the government's actions and its 'failure to grasp the severity of the prosecutorial misconduct' involved here, as well as the importance of its constitutionally imposed discovery obligations.''
Beyond the threat assessments, other evidence that defendants obtained "piecemeal'' during the trial included information about an FBI surveillance camera on a hill overlooking the Bundy home with a live-feed image viewed in a command center and snipers positioned outside the Bundy ranch.
Those would have bolstered the defense argument that Payne summoned militia members and supporters to Nevada because he feared the Bundys were surrounded by federal officers and isolated before the April 12, 2014, standoff.
The information also directly refutes the federal indictment, which alleges the Bundys and Payne used deceit to draw supporters, by falsely claiming snipers were surrounding the Bundy home.
The threat assessments, as well as evidence on a surveillance camera and federal snipers, also wasn't shared with the defendants prosecuted in two earlier Nevada trials this year, Payne's attorneys pointed out.
"It bears reminding that this Court sentenced one of these defendants in the Trial 1 group to 68 years and another one is pending sentencing,'' Weksler and Norwood wrote.
The government's delay in turning over the evidence prejudiced Payne and his co-defendants, his lawyers argued. The material would have been helpful for Payne's opening statement to jurors and to impeach the government's first witness, Mary Jo Rugwell, former head of the U.S. Bureau of Land Management office in southern Nevada, who referenced one of the threat assessments. She was cross-examined and excused as a government witness before the defense got the report.
The Bundys and Payne are charged with federal conspiracy to impede federal land managers through intimidation, threat or force, assault on a federal officer and extortion stemming from the standoff.
Here's some other details from the motions:
-- Prosecutors dismissed a defense request for an Office of Inspector General's report on fired Bureau of Land Management agent Dan Love as something of an "urban legend.'' In early December, though, prosecutors turned over nearly 500 pages of internal affairs reports on Love.
-- After Rugwell, the Bureau of Land Management manager, testified in November, prosecutors sent defense lawyers an email on Dec. 1, saying they inadvertently had forgotten to share notes the FBI had taken prior to Rugwell's testimony when she was being prepped as a witness. In those notes, Rugwell referenced a 2012 FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit Threat Assessment. Rugwell also referenced it during testimony. Defense lawyers demanded a copy of the assessment after Rugwell testified, yet prosecutors questioned its relevance before they were ordered to share it with the defense.
"The defense is anxious to learn how, even based on that discussion alone, it did not occur to the government to turn over information it knew the witness was relying on,'' Payne's lawyers wrote in their motion.
-- By late November, the defense had asked the court at least twice to appoint a "discovery monitor'' to make sure defendants were receiving all the evidence they were entitled to receive. None was appointed.
However, a day after the judge declared a mistrial, the U.S. Department of Justice released a statement saying Attorney General Jeff Sessions took "this issue very seriously and has personally directed that an expert in the Department's discovery obligations'' be sent to Las Vegas to examine the case and provide advice as to next steps.
-- Payne's lawyers briefly suggest that a Nov. 29 whistleblower memo from a Bureau of Land Management agent, complaining that the U.S. Attorney's Office didn't want to hear about potential evidence being withheld by his agency, should disqualify the prosecutors from future work on this case, if it's allowed to be retried.
--The U.S. Attorney's guidelines on sharing evidence in criminal trials state prosecutors' obligations clearly: "It is the obligation of federal prosecutors, in preparing for trial, to seek all exculpatory and impeachment information from all members of the prosecution team. Members of the prosecution team include federal, state, and local law enforcement officers and other government officials participating in the investigation and prosecution of the criminal case against the defendant.''
DOCUMENTS UNSEALED WEDNESDAY:
-Ryan Payne motion to dismiss based on discovery provided Nov. 17, 2017
-Ryan Payne motion to dismiss based on discovery provided Nov. 21, 2017
-Ryan Payne motion to dismiss based on continuing pattern of evidence violations
-Ryan Payne reply to a government response to motion to dismiss
-- Maxine Bernstein
mbernstein@oregonian.com
503-221-8212
@maxoregonian

Rebuke of U.S. attorneys in Cliven Bundy case: 'Every prosecutor's nightmare'

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The lead prosecutor in the Nevada standoff case against Cliven Bundy, two of his sons and a fourth alleged ringleader told a jury in his opening statement last month that the case centered on the need to respect the rule of law.
Five weeks later, it was the prosecution team's abuse of the rule of law that sunk the case, leading to a judge's declaration Wednesday of a mistrial.
U.S. District Judge Gloria M. Navarro methodically listed the prosecution's six separate violations of the Brady law, which requires turning over evidence potentially favorable to the defense. The judge further ruled that each violation was willful.
If ever there was a time when federal prosecutors needed to make sure they acted with complete integrity it was in the high-stakes Bundy case, legal observers say. The defendants already held a deep suspicion of the government and had successfully rallied followers to their cause.
Now, the question becomes whether prosecutors can pursue a new trial, and the judge's finding of deliberate misconduct gives the Bundys a good argument to seek an outright dismissal and walk away free men, legal experts said.
In the meantime, the dissection has begun: How could prosecutors have lost sight of due process, one of the basic tenets of the legal system.
"At the heart of this case is the question, Is the government an entity you can trust? Certainly if you're the prosecution in this case, you needed to do everything you can to show the government can be trusted,'' said Kevin Sali, a Portland criminal defense lawyer.
The judge's rebuke of Nevada's Acting U.S. Attorney Steven Myhre, the lead, and two seasoned veteran Assistant U.S. attorneys, Daniel Schiess and Nadia Ahmed, was remarkable in and of itself.
"This is every prosecutor's nightmare,'' said Kent Robinson, a retired federal prosecutor who served six years as chief of the criminal division in Oregon's U.S. Attorney's Office.
When a judge makes a finding of misconduct by a prosecutor, the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility investigates and determines if discipline is warranted, which can range from a reprimand to a suspension.
That scrutiny is underway. Ian D. Prior, deputy director of public affairs in the Justice Department, announced that U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions "takes this issue very seriously."
Sessions "has personally directed that an expert in the department's discovery obligations be deployed to examine the case and advise as to next steps,'' Prior said.
The government also could pull the plug on the case, without a judge's further ruling, as it has done in the past on other prosecutions.
Cliven Bundy, sons Ammon and Ryan Bundy and Ryan Payne, a Montana militiaman who came to help them, faced multiple charges, including federal conspiracy to impede federal officers through intimidation, threat or force, assault on federal officers and extortion. If convicted, they could face more than six decades in prison, what would essentially be a life term for the 71-year-old patriarch.

CASE WAS CHALLENGING FROM THE START
The complexity of the case presented a significant challenge for prosecutors, say seasoned defense lawyers and current and former prosecutors.
For one, the Nevada indictments didn't come until nearly a year and a half after the 2014 armed standoff. Cliven Bundy, his two sons and Payne were accused of rallying militia members and other supporters to thwart the court-ordered impoundment of the family's cattle on federal public land after years of Bundy's failure to renew a grazing permit or pay resulting fees and fines. Federal officers, outnumbered, retreated.
With the passage of so much time, prosecutors had to track down numerous witnesses and documents in a vast bureaucracy and jog foggy memories.
Another complication was the number of agencies involved -- including the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, the National Park Service and the FBI - and reports that went back at least a decade.
Federal land agents and Park Service rangers aren't as familiar with what they must turn over as evidence because they're not as accustomed to federal prosecutions of such breadth, other prosecutors said. In the judge's ruling, however, she specifically criticized the FBI, an agency that routinely works on these types of cases, for failing to share agents' basic reports.
"I think it's an agency problem more than a prosecution problem,'' Robinson said. "I think sometimes agencies just don't understand what they need to show to prosecutors.''
Regardless, as the judge made clear, the law requires prosecutors to "learn of the material in the possession of other agencies as well.''
Prosecutors often rely on the lead case agents from the investigating agencies for that information because it's impractical for any individual prosecutor to wade through what could be millions of pages of reports, other prosecutors say.
It didn't help that Dan Love, the Bureau of Land Management special agent in charge of the Bundy cattle roundup, was subsequently investigated for misconduct in an unrelated case and no longer works for the agency.
Additionally, the Nevada prosecutors faced increased pressure after they were largely unsuccessful in two other trials this year of more minor players in the Bunkerville standoff, and their counterparts in Portland failed to convince a jury last year to convict Ammon and Ryan Bundy in the January 2016 armed takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in southeastern Oregon.
Some legal observers questioned whether that heightened strain in a such a high-profile case caused prosecutors to cut corners.
Yet the 1963 landmark U.S. Supreme Court case Brady v. Maryland has long set out their fundamental obligations to share any potentially favorable evidence with the defense.
Other high-profile cases that have been tossed over similar Brady violations - such as the botched 2008 corruption trial against former Alaska U.S. Senator Ted Stevens  - should have put every prosecutor on notice of the seriousness of their obligations, legal observers say.
"They're adversaries looking to win a case. They're also public officials required to help the other side,'' Sali said. "I recognize that it's a challenge to do this, and the defense attorney does not have the same burden.
"But there's been so many high-profile failures by prosecutors in recent years that you'd think they'd get it and err on the side of caution, and if there's any doubt they'd just turn the material over.''

Mistrial declared in Cliven Bundy standoff case
PROSECUTORS DIDN'T TAKE BUNDYS SERIOUSLY
Ian Bartrum, a constitutional law professor at University of Nevada Las Vegas, said he's struggled to understand what led to the prosecutors' "tone deafness'' to their obligations.
He rejects a conspiracy theory floating around that prosecutors intentionally threw the case because their bosses in Washington, D.C., in the Trump administration may not support it.
"To me, the more likely scenario is they're not taking the Bundys seriously, and there was this mindset 'we can kind of just show up to win,''' he said.
The judge, for example, noted in her ruling how the prosecutors dismissed Ryan Bundy's pretrial motion for information on "mysterious devices'' outside his family ranch as "fantastical'' and a "fishing expedition,'' and shrugged off another defense request for a suspected federal investigative report into BLM agent Love, calling it "urban legend.'' This month, the government turned over nearly 500 pages of internal affairs documents on Love.
Perhaps the government wanted to keep "the Bundys' rambling defenses'' restricted to what it viewed as relevant, "and giving them more stuff to pore over and work with probably seemed like a bad idea,'' Bartrum said.
"It's either startling incompetence or striking arrogance,'' he said.
Dwight Holton, a former Oregon U.S. attorney, said he believes some agents in the FBI still resist turning over information they deem too sensitive or confidential. The FBI keeps a "remarkably close hold on the counterterrorism side'' of investigations, said Holton, speaking generally and not specifically about the Bundy case.
"I think there's still an education process going on at the Department of Justice as to what material the FBI produces and needs to be turned over,'' Holton said. "The 'turn it all over' attitude sometimes bumps squarely into the FBI ethos around maintaining control over security matters, especially in counter-terrorism operations.''
Holton said prosecutors also sometimes are unable to anticipate the defense theories. "It assumes we understand the defense. You don't always know what's helpful to the defense,'' he said.
But that's exactly why prosecutors must be cautious and turn over whatever they have, Bartrum said.
"Prosecutors don't get to decide what's relevant or not relevant,'' he said.
Oregon's U.S. Attorney's Office took action after a federal judge in 2014 rebuked prosecutors over similar Brady violations in the quadruple murder case of Joey Pedersen.
"Our office led training for federal and state law enforcement agencies to make sure they understand what it means when we say give us everything,'' Robinson said.
SECURITIES CASE MAY PROVIDE ROAD MAP
A criminal case heard 11 years ago in the same Nevada federal courthouse may provide some guidance on what's to follow in the Bundy case.
Bret Whipple, Cliven Bundy's lawyer, and other defense lawyers point to United States v. Chapman.
The 2006 securities fraud case ended with a mistrial based on fewer evidence violations by prosecutors than in the Bundy case and then was dismissed at a follow-up hearing. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal.
In her Bundy ruling this week, Navarro said she chose to declare that each of the government's violations were deliberate, though that finding wasn't necessary for a mistrial.
"It does help to clarify the next step,'' Navarro noted. She said she will decide later if the mistrial will be with prejudice, meaning prosecutors couldn't retry the case.
Whipple said the judge's findings provide a good argument for a dismissal; Navarro said the evidence withheld was "material'' to the defense case and that each of the prosecution's six "willful" violations resulted in due process violations. The documents confirmed a live-feed camera was aimed at the Bundy Ranch, and armed federal agents were watching the family home before the standoff, which the government had negated. About 3,300 pages of documents were turned over to the defense too late, the judge said.
In the Chapman case, prosecutors failed to share 650 pages of reports on prior criminal convictions, pleas and cooperating agreements of government witnesses, including three who had already testified at trial.
The judge ordered a mistrial in the third week of testimony in the Chapman case, mirroring Navarro's words, saying he "regrettably'' didn't see how the trial could go forward. The judge ordered lawyers from both sides to submit briefs within 20 days arguing for and against a dismissal, held a hearing and then dismissed the indictment. In Chapman, the judge found the prosecutors' Brady violations to be willful and in bad faith. The appellate court affirmed the dismissal, noting it stood on grounds of outrageous government conduct and due process violations.
Defense lawyers said the violations in the Bundy case are more extensive, involving thousands of pages of documents deliberately withheld.
"All we need to do is point out her findings that the evidence was 'material,' and the violations were 'willful,' and attach the Chapman case. In my mind that seals the deal,'' Whipple said. "I'm confident we'll get a mistrial with prejudice. One step at a time. We're getting close.''

Friday, December 29, 2017

Anti-Trump ‘resistance‘ chief faces child-rape accusation

SEATTLE — Only three days before a 46-year-old man filed a lawsuit accusing him of child rape and “molestation,” Seattle Mayor Ed Murray was featured in a national interview story as one of the faces of the Democratic Party’s resistance to President Trump.
said Murray was “positioning himself at the forefront of the pushback” to Trump.
His city had and he had teamed with Washington’s governor and attorney general to oppose Trump’s temporary travel ban, resulting in a ruling by a federal judge in Seattle to temporarily halt the president’s executive order.
Murray, who is running for re-election this year, told Politico he was “beginning to think we’re dealing with America’s first authoritarian administration.”
But last Thursday, a local man filed a , claiming Murray raped and molested him when the man was a teenager.
with a thorough, multi-reporter examination of the charges, including interviews with two other men with similar profiles who told similar stories and provided matching intimate physical details of Murray and the apartment he lived in at the time.
 and he said he felt sad for the “troubled” individual making the claims.
“I have never backed down,” he said. “And I will not back down now.”
“Let me be clear: These allegations, dating back to a period of more than 30 years, are simply not true,” the mayor said.
The mayor’s personal spokesman Jeff Reading said: “These false accusations are intended to damage a prominent elected official who has been a defender of vulnerable populations for decades. It is not a coincidence that this shakedown effort comes within weeks of the campaign filing deadline. These unsubstantiated assertions, dating back three decades, are categorically false. Mayor Murray has never engaged in an inappropriate relationship with any minor. … Mayor Murray will vigorously fight these allegations in court.”
However,  for deciding to investigate and report the allegations, noting it had interviewed two other accusers and sought “documentation or witnesses to corroborate their accounts.”
The Times knew of two other accusers in March 2008, Jeff Simpson and Lloyd Anderson, but chose not to report their claims at the time, because, among other things, the attorney for Simpson withdrew a potential lawsuit.
“Ultimately, we felt we did not have enough information to publish these very serious accusations,” the Times said.
But the paper “decided we needed to take another look when we learned recently that a Kent man was preparing to sue now-Mayor Murray.”
“We found no connection between the new accuser, identified in the lawsuit as D.H., and the other men. Our reporting revealed similarities among the three accounts, including some graphic details. We felt readers should know,” the Times said.
“We don’t take these decisions lightly, and make them only after lengthy discussions. We know this is a disturbing story. But we cannot shy away from important stories simply because they make us uncomfortable.”
After Murray’s statement Friday, the lawyer for D.H., , arguing the mayor’s representatives have never asked for his client’s identity, so if Murray is being truthful “he should have no idea who my client is” and would have no basis to “paint him as ‘troubled,‘” unless he knew him.
Epicenter of resistance
Murray was named in a Feb. 5 Washington Post article headlined ” noting the mayor had vowed to protect illegal-alien residents, even asking the city to rework budgets in anticipation of the loss of federal funds.
“This city will not be bullied by this administration,” Murray .
Politico reported Murray’s path to City Hall in Seattle began as an AIDS activist in the 1980s. Later, he managed a friend’s campaign for state representative. Murray was appointed to that seat himself after the friend died. He then won a seat in the state Senate before defeating an incumbent in a 2013 mayoral primary.
Under Murray, Seattle led the nation in imposing a $15 minimum wage and has initiated controversial, tax-hiking programs to combat homelessness that have included tent cities and encampments deploying run-down RVs.
Days before the lawsuit against him was filed, in favor of pursuing a county sales tax increase to pay for services in the region.
Seattle and King County rank third — behind Los Angeles and New York City — among 50 major cities and counties in the number of homeless people, with nearly 11,000, according to a November 2016 federal government report.
In his interview with Politico April 3, Murray discussed his Catholic faith — he once studied to be a priest before changing direction — and the divisions among Democrats who are trying to mount a resistance to Trump.
“On the national level, at times, I feel like we are becoming like the tea party on the far right, that we have purity tests,” he said.
“If we are starting to have purity tests amongst ourselves, then we’re never going to gain back those working-class and lower-income people that we are building a progressive movement for.”
‘Healing process’
The three accusers interviewed by the Times said they knew Murray when they were growing up in Portland in the 1980s.
In his legal complaint, D.H. alleges Murray “raped and molested him” over several years, beginning in 1986 when the man was a 15-year-old high-school dropout and crack-cocaine addict.
“I have been dealing with this for over 30 years,” the man, now sober for a year, told the Times.
He said he was coming forward as part of a “healing process” after years of “the shame, the embarrassment, the guilt, the humiliation that I put myself through and that he put me through.”
The two other accusers, Simpson and Anderson, also described themselves as troubled teens in the 1980s when they knew Murray.
Simpson told the Times he spoke to a detective and a social worker in 1984 about his claim, but no charges were filed.
A decade ago, they both raised the allegations to media and Washington state lawmakers. Simpson, in 2008, said he spoke on the phone with the Rev. Ken Hutcherson, the late local pastor who was an outspoken activist for traditional marriage.
Anderson and Simpson told the Times they would testify in court if needed.
Murray’s spokesman, Reading, addressed the previous claims.
“The two older accusations were promoted by extreme right-wing anti-gay activists in the midst of the marriage equality campaign, and were thoroughly investigated and dismissed by both law enforcement authorities and the media,” he said.
The Times pointed out all three of Murray’s accusers have “substantial criminal records.”
Simpson said he understands why people didn’t believe him then.
“I get it. I understand, my past is less than stellar,” he said. “… People did think I was nuts and nobody wanted to believe it. But I felt I needed to tell the truth, finally tell the truth.”
D.H. told the Times he didn’t see how Murray could deny the claims. The paper said attorneys want to question the mayor under oath within 90 days.
The accuser wants Murray held accountable for treating him “like I was just nothing, like I was worthless.”
His lawsuit said he “is disturbed that Mr. Murray maintains a position of trust and authority, and believes that the public has a right to full information when a trusted official exploits a child.”
‘Potential land mines’
The Seattle Time’s Nina Shapiro cited
Danni Askini of the Gender Justice League said it’s “too soon” to take sides but said she felt emotional about the allegations.
“The news has been unbelievably triggering for survivors of DV (domestic violence), sexual assault and childhood sexual assault,” she wrote in a Facebook post.
But she is also concerned, Shapiro said, about how “accusations like these can feed homophobic stereotypes.”
“I see so many potential land mines here,” Askini wrote.
Shapiro said that while the mayor and his spokesmen have accused the men of having political motivations, “the allegations — though unproven and still fresh — had an all-too-familiar ring.”
“It’s the pattern,” said Richard Sipe, a former priest who has written and testified about sexual abuse in the Catholic church. “All the elements are there.”
Sipe noted the alleged victims were vulnerable people, and Murray is accused of developing a relationship with them by offering help.
In Catholic church abuse cases he has studied, Sipe told the Times, priests often chose children who had lost a father, then drew close and said, “I’ll be your father now.”
Mary Dispenza, Northwest leader of Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, didn’t want to jump to conclusions, recalling Murray was a leader in supporting homosexuals in the church.
But she told Shapiro the allegations stirred memories.
Dispenza said he was abused at age 7 but didn’t disclose it until she was 52.
“I know what holds us back,” she said, referring to shame.
members of the Seattle City Council were remaining silent about the allegations. Council President Bruce Harrell said in a written statement he and the council’s other members “have no intention of commenting on matters of pending or potential litigation. We believe that it is critically important that, together, we remain committed to the business of governing.”
If Murray were to resign, Harrell would be called upon to serve as acting mayor.
“Our city cannot afford to be distracted,” Harrell said. “There is a judicial process that will address the serious allegations that this situation has presented, and we will respect that process and the rights of all parties involved. All accusations of abuse require a thorough investigation. It is in our human nature to immediately want answers, but I ask we not cast aspersions to the parties involved before we have all the facts through the legal process. I am confident that through this process, truth and justice will prevail.”





Tuesday, December 26, 2017

FBI agent accused of lying about firing shots during confrontation with LaVoy Finicum

FBI agent in court on charge of lying about rancher shooting

PORTLAND, Ore. — An FBI agent pleaded not guilty on Wednesday to charges that he lied about shooting at a key figure in last year’s armed occupation of a national wildlife refuge just before the man was killed by Oregon police.
W. Joseph Astarita said nothing during a brief court hearing and was released on his own recognizance.
He was indicted on five felony charges after the inspector general of the U.S. Justice Department began investigating last year possible FBI misconduct and whether there was a cover-up.
Robert “LaVoy” Finicum, a spokesman for the group that took over the remote bird sanctuary to oppose federal control of land in the western United States, was fatally shot Jan. 26, 2016. Oregon State Police opened fire after he got out of a vehicle at a police roadblock, held up his hands and then reached toward a handgun that he kept in an inner jacket pocket.
Investigators determined the troopers were justified in shooting Finicum but also found members of an FBI hostage rescue team at the scene failed to disclose that they fired two rounds that missed the Arizona rancher.
A grand jury indicted Astarita on three counts of making false statements to his FBI supervisors on the day of the shooting and the day after it and on two counts of obstruction of justice for misleading the Oregon State Police. A jury trial is set for Aug. 29.
Finicum’s widow, Jeanette Finicum, has said she plans to sue Oregon State Police and the FBI, alleging the use of excessive force in her husband’s death. Nobody answered a call to her number Wednesday, and her lawyer, Brian Claypool, did not return a message seeking comment.
Dozens of people, including leader Ammon Bundy, occupied the remote Malheur National Wildlife Refuge about 290 miles southeast of Portland, from Jan. 2 to Feb. 11, 2016. They were allowed to come and go for several weeks as authorities tried to avoid bloodshed seen in past standoffs at Waco, Texas, and Ruby Ridge, Idaho.
But authorities moved in Jan. 26 when key standoff leaders left the refuge to attend a community meeting, pulling over two vehicles and arresting the occupiers inside.
Finicum, 54, was driving one of the vehicles. Video taken by one of his passengers showed the occupants panicking after authorities stopped the truck.
With his window rolled down, Finicum shouted at officers: “Shoot me, just shoot me! Put the bullet through me.”
Finicum then sped off. He was driving more than 70 mph when the truck came to a roadblock and plowed into a snowbank.
Authorities say the FBI agent fired two errant shots as Finicum left the truck. As Finicum stood in the snow, authorities told him to lie on the ground. Instead, he reached toward his jacket, leading state troopers to fire three rounds, all of which hit him.
Most occupiers left the refuge after Finicum’s death, though four holdouts stayed an additional 16 days.
Federal prosecutors tried to convict occupation leaders Ammon and Ryan Bundy and five others in a trial last fall but jurors acquitted them of charges of conspiring to impede federal workers from their jobs.
Jurors convicted four men in a second trial. An additional 14 people pleaded guilty without going to trial.
The Bundys and others are now facing trial in Nevada on conspiracy charges in a 2014 armed standoff with federal agents.

Sunday, December 24, 2017

Chelsea bomber tried to radicalize inmates, prosecutors say

Chelsea bomber tried to radicalize inmates, prosecutors say


Story highlights

  • Ahmad Khan Rahimi shared terrorist propaganda with other prisoners, prosecutors say
  • He was convicted in October in the 2016 bombing in New York's Chelsea neighborhood
(CNN)The man convicted in the 2016 bombing in New York's Chelsea neighborhood that injured 30 people has been trying to radicalize other inmates, federal prosecutors say.
Ahmad Khan Rahimi also told a judge he is on a hunger strike.
Rahimi provided inmates with copies of terrorist propaganda and jihadist materials, including speeches by Osama Bin Laden and the late militant cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, bomb making instructions, books on jihad and issues of the al Qaeda-backed magazine Inspire, prosecutors said.
Rahimi "has been attempting to radicalize fellow inmates in the Metropolitan Correction Center by, among other things, distributing propaganda and publications issued by terrorist organizations," according to a letter from Acting US Attorney Joon H. Kim to US District Judge Richard Berman.
Rahimi let other inmates view the items on his laptop and gave them electronic copies, Kim's letter said. Discs of the materials were found in two inmates' possession.
Defense attorneys for Rahimi have yet to respond to the allegations.
Prosecutors said Rahimi began distributing these materials in October if not earlier. Rahimi was convicted October 16 on eight federal charges in connection with the Chelsea bombing.
Among the inmates Rahimi gave the materials to, prosecutors say, is Sajmir Alimehmeti, who is scheduled to go on trial next month on terrorism-related charges.
Alimehmeti is represented by attorney Sabrina Shroff, who is also on Rahimi's defense team. Kim wrote to Berman asking for a hearing to make sure Rahimi "has knowingly waived the potential conflict of interest that exists between [Rahimi] and his attorneys."

Hunger strike

Rahimi also says he's on a hunger strike. In an undated handwritten letter to Berman, Rahimi states that he began a hunger strike on December 8 out of protest because he says his wife and children have not been able to visit him since the end of his trial.
"I am on a short time because my sentencing date is on January 18, 2018. Because of this short time and the frustration I have decided to go on a hunger strike," Rahimi wrote.
Berman received the letter December 21 and has ordered attorneys for both the government and defense to respond, according to court documents.
Rahimi was arrested and charged after a pressure cooker bomb went off in New York's Chelsea neighborhood on September 17, 2016. A second pressure cooker bomb was found a few blocks away, on 27th Street, but didn't detonate.
Earlier the same day, a bomb went off near the start of a Marine Corps charity run in Seaside Park, New Jersey.
After a two-week trial and roughly four hours of jury deliberation, Rahimi was convicted of charges including the use and attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, bombing a public place, destroying property by means of fire or explosives, and using a destructive device in furtherance of a crime of violence.
During the trial, the prosecution presented evidence -- including DNA and fingerprints -- linking Rahimi to the bombs that were placed in New Jersey and New York.
Rahimi faces a mandatory sentence of life in prison, according to an earlier statement from Kim.
Rahimi faces separate charges in other jurisdictions in connection with the bomb that went off in Seaside Park, a backpack containing improvised explosive devices found the following day at a transit station in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and a shootout he had with police before being taken into custody.

Saturday, December 23, 2017

Homeland Security says chain migration let terrorism-related suspects into U.S.

Homeland Security says chain migration let terrorism-related suspects into U.S.

The Department of Homeland Security said chain migration is the common element in two cases allegedly tied to terrorism activities, according to a statement released Saturday.
In the statement on Twitter, Acting Press Secretary Tyler Houlton said DHS “can confirm the suspect involved in a terror attack in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and another suspect arrested on terror-related money laundering charges were both beneficiaries of extended family chain migration.”
Chain migration is when an immigrant gains legal entry into the U.S. via sponsorship by a family member who’s already a legal resident or citizen. The Trump administration launched a campaign against the immigration system, in favor of a more merit-based structure, favoring education and job potential as factors.
WHITE HOUSE TO PUSH MERIT-BASED IMMIGRATION IN NEW CAMPAIGN
The memo referred to Ahmed Aminamin El-Mofty, 51, who it said was a naturalized U.S. citizen admitted to the U.S. from Egypt on a family-based visa. El-Mofty went on a shooting spree Friday in Harrisburg and was reportedly targeting police officers.
The gunman, carrying two rifles and a shotgun, fired at officers in multiple locations.
"He fired several shots at a Capitol police officer and at a Pennsylvania state police trooper in marked vehicles," Dauphin County District Attorney Ed Marsico said. The state trooper was injured but is “doing well,” he said.
El-Mofty pursued the trooper to a residential neighborhood and encountered law enforcement officers, who ultimately killed him after he fired “many shots” at them.
The statement also mentioned Zoobia Shahnaz, who DHS said was a naturalized U.S. citizen who entered from Pakistan, also on a family-based visa. Shahnaz was indicted on Dec. 14 after she allegedly laundered more than $85,000 through Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies overseas to the Islamic State.
END CHAIN MIGRATION, AS TRUMP WANTS, AND SWITCH TO MERIT-BASED IMMIGRATION
Acquiring the money through fraudulently obtained credit cards and a bank loan, Shahnaz laundered the funds to people in Pakistan, China and Turkey and “planned to travel to Syria and join ISIS,” federal officials said.
Shahnaz was charged in federal court with bank fraud, conspiracy to commit money laundering and three counts of money laundering, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.
In the DHS statement Saturday, Houlton said, “These incidents highlight the Trump administration’s concerns with extended chain migration.”
“Both chain migration and the diversity visa lottery program have been exploited by terrorists to attack our country,” Houlton said. “Not only are the programs less effective at driving economic growth than merit-based immigration systems used by nearly all other countries, the programs make it more difficult to keep dangerous people out of the United States and to protect the safety of every American.”

COPS AGAIN KILLING UNARMED WOMEN AND CHILDREN

Child killed in police shootout identified, suspect found unarmed






SCHERTZ, Texas – A 6-year-old boy and a suspect are dead after deputies engaged in a shootout in Schertz with a known felon who was found unarmed.
A half mile pursuit on Dec. 21 led deputies to the Pecan Grove mobile home park where they opened fire on a woman who had several outstanding felony warrants.
Sheriff Javier Salazar said a young boy was struck in the abdomen and killed by a stray bullet during the shootout. The woman was allegedly on the porch of the boy’s home when he was hit. The boy has been identified as Kameron Prescott by the Bexar County Medical Examiner. 
The incident began when police received a call about a woman trying to steal a car. According to Salazar, the unidentified woman was found hiding in a closet at an apartment complex. A deputy told investigators the suspect indicated to him that she had a weapon and was going to shoot him.
After allegedly showing the deputy a gun, the woman ran towards a wooded area igniting a two hour pursuit. During the case, deputies, witnesses and a helicopter all reported seeing the woman with a gun.
At one point she crossed Cibola Creek and was chased by K9 officers to the mobile home park. Witnesses told police she was trying to get into trailers and threatening people.
"I was just sitting out back on my porch, playing with my cats. My friend texted me and just said don't go outside. I was like why and she was like there's a shooting going on by your house,' said neighbor Alexis Juarez.
As officers approached the woman on the porch of the boy’s home, the sheriff said she made them fear for their lives. At one point the helicopter patrol told officers she was reaching for her waistband. Several shots were fired by four deputies, hitting the woman who fell down and died at the scene.
Salazar said a weapon was not found on the suspect’s body.
The young boy was taken to the University Hospital where he died. Investigators said at this time they do not know if the boy was hit by a deputy’s bullet.

IF SHE WAS IN A CLOSET IN AN APARTMENT POINTING A GUN AT DEPUTIES...WHY DIDNT THEY SHOOT HER THEN,  BET SHE NEVER HAD A GUN BUT WAS HOLDING ON TO HER METH PIPE,,CHARGE OF MURDER SHOULD BE FILED ON COPS

Wednesday, December 20, 2017

Mistrial in case against rancher Cliven Bundy, sons and militiaman

Judge declares mistrial in case against rancher Cliven Bundy, sons and militiaman




Cliven Bundy at an event in Bunkerville, Nev., in 2015. (John Locher/AP)
 


A federal judge declared a mistrial Wednesday in the criminal conspiracy case against rancher Cliven Bundy and three other defendants, saying government lawyers suppressed key evidence that would have been favorable to the defendants’ case related to a 2014 standoff with federal agents.
U.S. District Court Judge Gloria Navarro determined that the prosecution suppressed evidence from FBI surveillance cameras recording the Bundy family home and the presence of Bureau of Land Management snipers around the property in the days leading up to the standoff there. Additionally, the prosecution did not provide FBI logs, maps, reports and threat assessments that said the Bundy family was not dangerous.
Navarro pointed to assessments conducted by the FBI, the Southern Nevada Counter Terrorism Center and the BLM that said “the Bundy family is not violent” and that they “would probably get in your face, but not get into a shootout.”
The court “regrettably believes a mistrial is the only suitable option,” Navarro told the packed Nevada courtroom. “A fair trial at this point is impossible.”
The case accused Bundy, his sons Ammon and Ryan Bundy, and Montana militiaman Ryan Payne of conspiring to commit a crime against BLM officers during the armed standoff near the family ranch in Nevada.
Navarro spoke of several reports that were also kept from the defense that showed that the Bundy family’s cows — which had been illegally grazing on public lands for more than 20 years when the BLM orchestrated a roundup of the cattle — had “no detrimental impact on Desert Tortoise habitat.” The tortoise is listed as “threatened” under the Endangered Species Act.
Such details cast doubt on the government’s portrait of the family as violent, paranoid, anti-government extremists. But Navarro noted to the courtroom that declaring a mistrial does not mean that the men are being found not guilty.
“That is not the court’s decision,” Navarro said. “It is for a jury to decide.”
As of Wednesday evening, Cliven Bundy was still incarcerated, but his attorney, Bret Whipple, said he planned to file an emergency motion to see his client released from jail without conditions. The Bundy family patriarch, along with other defendants, was granted conditional release earlier this month, but Cliven Bundy chose to stay in jail until he was allowed to leave without GPS monitoring, which Bundy said would “acknowledge that he did something wrong,” Whipple said.
Both sides have until Dec. 29 to file briefs on whether the judge should allow the government to pursue a new trial.
“I do not think there is a jury in this country that will convict us,” Ammon Bundy said outside the courthouse, an arm slung around his mother’s shoulders as he spoke to reporters. “The truth is on our side.”
The mistrial “does bring a lot of vindication to us,” he said, noting that Navarro “talked about our family, my dad, how he wasn’t prone to use violence. My dad has said that many, many times. He’s not a violent man. He’s a man of peace. He only wanted his rights to be protected.”
Supporters of the Bundy family streamed to the Nevada desert in the spring of 2014 after videos of BLM agents using a stun gun on Ammon Bundy and throwing his aunt to the ground went viral. The family put a call out for supporters to come to their aid in what they felt was an illegal roundup of their cattle.
A mistrial is, in some ways, the latest in a string of victories for the Bundy family.
Last fall, Ammon and Ryan Bundy, as well as other defendants, were acquitted of nearly identical charges for their 41-day armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in January 2016, a federal facility they said should be returned to the people of the southeastern Oregon county.
In a separate trial this year over the 2014 standoff, several men were acquitted by a jury.
Ryan Bundy, who represented himself in both Oregon and Nevada, told reporters that the family’s decision to stand up against what they saw as federal tyranny was informed by their belief in the scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, particularly the “white horse prophecy,” which contends that LDS followers will be the final defenders of the U.S. Constitution. The LDS church has continually condemned the actions of the Bundy family and says that the white horse prophecy is not accepted doctrine and more akin to conspiracy theory.
But on Wednesday, Ryan Bundy spoke of the prophecy as truth: “Joseph Smith prophesied that the Constitution would at some point hang as if it were by a thread,” he said. “Put it this way: Whether the church calls it doctrine or not, we’ve got quotes from several prophets reiterating that. . . . I take the words of the prophets both modern and previous ones seriously.”

After the mistrial was declared, Kieran Suckling, executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity, yelled into a bullhorn outside the courthouse: “Public lands belong to everybody! Not just to people who have the biggest guns!” Around him, Bundy supporters jeered in response.
“There are no public lands!” one woman yelled. “The government has the biggest guns!” another man countered